I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. Hi Julie Anne, She needed that love. Thank you. You might like to listen to them. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? Velour, please do not be so quick to assume that because someone failed to mention treatment, that they are against it. Yes, there sure is. Im not contesting that. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. Sproul 2s drinking The federal government actually paid me to be an explainer. Any discussion that veers from the literal path is an attack. Good point, Jeff. Welcome to TWW. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. I have been trying to put many old demons to rest and cancel out some of those old tapes that keep repeating. I think its the same person. He needs to be in treatment and his family needs to be in special support groups for dealing with an alcoholic relative and learn how to take care of themselves. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. wrote: RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. It was crystal clear. Has that been reported on or discussed? In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. He's already a menace on the road when sober. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Of course enabling doesnt help, ever. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Every person is different. Our records show Robert Charles Sproul (83) as possible relative. Its not uncommon for conversations to turn sour when people who care deeply about a topic find themselves talking past each other. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. This is not cruel. This guy is not pastoral material, period. Just pondering here. I do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could end up with somebody dead. We were basically a para church ministry. The Bible is much more complex than just a few Scripture verses on any one topic, including the ones you have cited to justify kicking problem drinkers to the curb. If so, a shame he did. ) Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). Alcoholism is like other types of drug addiction. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. That is an important element here. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. Christiane wrote: Hi VELOUR, Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] It wont. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). Hes been mollycoddled and bailed out every time hes gotten himself into trouble. When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. @ jeff: When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. I found that quote on this site: I dont know if the various treatment programs ( CR, AA ) create new problems or uncover existing, hidden issues. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. Contra Costa County? re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Too. Interesting points. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. I would say the same about someone who didnt go to church. We are so grateful that you made it. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. Having their family members go to programs like Al-Anon helps as well, as they learn not to enable the alcoholic and to take care of themselves. Telling me that I cant respond to other people here who post comments to me. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. Would you PLEASE STOP! He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. And stealing. Good on you, Velour, dear sis. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. I raised a kid that a sibling could not care for, and never, not one time, ever not once was I not there, my nephews words, not mine. And Im not starting. This was still a ways off, so I turned into the first driveway and waited. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. Yes it is. OK. How would you have liked me to word this to you? There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. Thats wonderful, Leslie, that you started a safe group that was so helpful to other parents. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is I think you are misunderstanding me. (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. It is insane that these false teachers have any followers too. That is carrying it too far. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? Maybe the congregation in question would give the same love and grace to someone in a pew. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? And then there are the most of us who do the best we can and stumble on. Basically, he lied. When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. We chose not to publish a comment (or comments?) write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? Average Age & Life Expectancy Ann Sproul lived 9 years shorter than the average Sproul family member when she died at the age of 65. In this issue I hope that your apparent hope is justified. Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. The constant putdowns to me and others, calling people with addictions alkies, telling me that I cant reply to comments, etc. Vesta Freese, age 89 of Longmont, CO, formerly of Lake View, IA, passed away on Monday, November 18, 2019, in Longmont, CO. Vesta Ann Keiser was born on August 19, 1930, in Clinton Township, Sac City, IA, to parents Austin and Iva (Luft) Keiser. Or for his wife? Moreover, I am even less convinced that your average church is in any way qualified to intervene in the typical alky scenario. Beloved husband of Dorothy L. (nee Bury); loving father of Kathy (Dan) Lovell, Susan (Bill) Beifuss, and Albert (Janet). Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people.. SEE? http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. I see this correction has been made. We dont have money for the hanger-ons those that are faking it bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. Deb, I also meant to say, How horrible for your friend that she lost her parents in such an awful way! It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. But yes, out-patient treatment would also work. Viola! This thread was about RC, Jr. and his many abuse issues beyond alcoholism, though. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. Velour wrote: The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. There are many lovely ones and I count several as close friends. If we were discussing instead your ex-pastor, I might imagine that those who surround him would be enabling him and calling it support, as an extension of the culture of the place where they seemed to see nothing wrong with unconditionally supporting their Megans list friend. And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. People should not be treated this way. Or we edit the comment by replacing the word codependent with some other word, and then publish the comment. Yes, there sure is. Please pardon me for saying this, but from the tone of your comments, it seems as if your reaction was more to go to war with Barbara than to try to find out what she actually meant. She can correct me if I did. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. You assume a lot and you would be wrong. (BTW, I agree with her.). Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Even that helped. RC Jr was also addicted to tobacco, in the form of an even nastier habit, chewing, but eventually gave it up. 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